Zezo forum:

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-03 | 14:29:18

hi guys,
I am looking at the new VSR point system, overall ranking and TJV points, and cant figure it out...seems completely random to me.
I get it that VR wants to have more fluctuation in the ranking and that "weak" players are being favoured so they can climb the ladder faster...
but even if you apply an ELO-system logic where players are more measured against their own relative performance then against absolute performance the vsr points given for the TJV do not make any sense...
some top players performed according to their potential (overall ranking), still got less points than other top players who performed way below their potential.

can any of you hotshot computer wizards figure out the formula VR is using and explain which factors are dominating the score?

one thing seems to be obvious...the final ranking in a race does not matter much anymore

34 Comments

Post by PML | 2019-04-03 | 15:59:53

My VSR points as of 1 April 2019 dropped to 2,692 from 3,230 between yesterday and today.

Has anyone experienced changes too?

Post by PML | 2019-04-03 | 15:59:54

My VSR points as of 1 April 2019 dropped to 2,692 from 3,230 between yesterday and today.

Has anyone experienced changes too?

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-03 | 18:39:10

same here...I think it happened across the board...

the VR intern has not yet finished programming the new vsr ranking code... :-)

Post by zezo | 2019-04-03 | 16:07:45

We'll figure it out once enough data points are collected after a race or two.

Now it seems that you get more VSR points as your running rating goes down , and the curve is pretty steep - like if a top player misses a race or two he'll drop from the top.

The XP points look a bit like the previous VSR points, but with more weight on race category and less on actual ranking.

Post by zezo | 2019-04-03 | 16:44:59

If the current green-colored deltas come from the Jules Verne:

Everyone got 300+ VSR and about 6000 XP

I finished 280th in the race, got 341 VSR and 5984 XP, with a running VSR around 20

MacAll - 6/297/6000 (7)
Raketa - 45/320/5997 (14)
YourMom- 70/302/5996 (8)
BigBird-280/341/5984 (19)

Buddha -340/241/5979 (2)
Tipa...-452/236/5973 (1)
tame b.-820/242/5951 (3)

So I got more points than anyone in front of me on the VSR, no matter the rank. Kind of ELO actually. Players #2 and #3 got about the same points, with 2x rank difference.

Post by Seahog | 2019-04-06 | 01:58:35

There was logic behind the previous ranking system, and it pretty much worked. Looks to me that they are just trying to be too clever with this update.

Post by BGSteMarine | 2019-04-07 | 15:23:54

Hi All,

this is still an intermediate result, as the formula is only based on a Level 2 race (Madagascar Run), but we will probably be able to generalize it after the closure of the next race tomorrow.

So the formula is :

VSR Points Won = ((5000 * (1 - Arrival Rank / Nbr Of Participants)) - Total VSR Points before race) / 5

By the way, for the XP, the formula is :
XP Points Won = 1000 * (7 - Race Level) * (1 - Arrival Rank / Nbr Of Participants)

Have a nice day, and let's share what we found tomorrow ;-)
Benoit.

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-07 | 21:33:20

Hi Benoit,
many thanks for your efforts calculating this...the formula reflects my madagascar points...but in general the madagascar points make sort of sense in itself if you compare overall ranking and race ranking and resulting VSR points.

For the JV before, in contrast, the points were all over the place, but we will probably never find out, as there was no "total number of VSR points before race"...

do you have any idea why VR established two parallel point system...it seems to me that the VSR points are the important ones, as they define the levels etc...what are the XP points good for?
thanks, oliver

Post by BGSteMarine | 2019-04-07 | 22:13:13

Hi Olivier,
not sure about that, but it could be something like they want to have a "positive sign" for new (bad) players who would see their VSR Ranking going down from the beginning because of very poor results ?

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-09 | 12:26:27

I think the change on the first day was because they decided to change the points initialisation for the new system. Initially I had lower points than people on my team at levels 6 and 7 (I was just into 13) despite the majority of my results being top 20s! But I had a few very poor results, one where I hadn't intended to race which I suspect in the system would be penalised heavily if your current rank is high. I suspect lots of people complained about this and they decided to do something fairer like convert the old points onto a new curve / line so we all remained in the same order.... or there was a bug ;-)

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-09 | 12:28:54

I think the formula will depend on level so maybe the 5 in BGSteMarine's formula will be related to race level.

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-09 | 15:58:54

also, in the old formula there was a exp/log relationship vsr point calculation/race ranking...in the new formula everything appears to be linear...vsr point difference between winning the race and rank 100 is the same now as between rank 1000 and 1100?
thats not very motivating...

Post by BGSteMarine | 2019-04-09 | 19:26:13

Hi all,
here we are. So the new completed formula is :

VSR Points Won = ((5000 * (1 - Arrival Rank / Nbr Of Participants)) - Total VSR Points before race) * (7 - Race Level) / 25.

I have updated the shared calculation sheet (same url as before) :

Credits and Point Calculation

Fair winds to all,
Benoit

Post by Solveig IV VSC | 2019-04-10 | 09:17:29

Hi all,
thanks Benoit for this brainwork!

The formulae seem to be correct, however, I noticed that the number of points you get is basically dependent on the number of VSR-points you already have. Your performance in the race is of only marginal importance (there are only a few points difference between, say, place 500 and 50) and so is the number of participants and the race level. XP-points apparently only determine your level in the game and nothing else.

This, in fact, creates a high volatility in the ranking but will frustrate many of us because the number of races you participate in becomes much more important than your performance in them.

My hunch would be that VR will modify the formula a number of times in the near future to achieve the desired balance between attracting new players and keeping the experienced ones.

May the winds be with you,
Stefan

Post by zezo | 2019-04-10 | 09:59:33

To translate it in human terms - to break even you have to rank in the same percentile as your VSR is to 5000.

With 30000 players and VSR 4000 you start losing points after #6000.

A DNF means losing like 1/5 of your existing VSR points, depending on race category.

Post by YourMomSA | 2019-04-10 | 16:20:29

So... ranking can be very dynamic race-to-race if your VSR is under roughly 4,500... but once your VSR gets close to 5,000, you need to be finishing at or near the top to not lose points... So the VSR 1 position will become a matter, for better or worse, of "how close can you get, and stay to 5,000".

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-10 | 17:11:47

many thanks Benoit...great work!

this new way to calculate vsr points really leaves me speechless...I mean, i get what VR is trying to achieve...but this?

what sense does a race make when its basically meaningless if you finish first or 100th ???

for defi2, I would get exactly the same amount of points (106) between rank 1-29 and one point less (105) between rank 30-99...

that makes the whole racing totally pointless...unbelievable...

Post by zezo | 2019-04-10 | 18:13:33

That's probably the intended purpose - get rid of old players and give some chance to the newbies.

Only thing is that a sailing game where you need to keep attention for 6 months to achieve something, and where a 5 minutes offline can ruin your race for the coming weeks requires a slightly different audience that your typical MMORPG

BTW the player turnover was a natural process before there was no VSR ranking at all. People would win a race or two, some VOR leg or another, then get bored and tired and take a rest. There were new names on the list every year.

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-10 | 19:37:06

I get all this...but still...if you take away any incentive to win you somehow negate the basic purpose of any game or competition...maybe VR should just do a lottery and pick the top 100 by chance every week...same chance for everybody.

but I bet also newbies like to win and get somehow rewarded for this...
to take away any incentive to do well is counterproductive...when the famous newbie climbs the ranks to the top and notices that all his efforts and wins do not count anything he will be frustrated as well...

anyway, same procedure as always...VR does an update, everybody is unhappy...and still plays on...as will I...lets hope they'll modify their formula and make the actual ranking in the race count again...

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-10 | 23:11:57

Shortened link for easy sharing in VR messages ;-)

https://bit.ly/2USAkKo

Thanks Benoit for working it all out again so quickly.

You might like to put above url in the sheet somewhere.

Post by BGSteMarine | 2019-04-14 | 17:17:03

Thanks much MidnightFoiler :-)

Post by YourMomSA | 2019-04-11 | 01:31:29

My impression is... AFTER you get into the VSR top 10 or so... THEN your finishing position matters more than just "top 50 or no". If you're #3, trying to get to #1, then every spot matters. But if you're 120th, trying to get to 20th... then the new formula makes that way easier and your goal is to finish top 50 or so. So... A lot of dynamics among boats vying for "near the top", but exceptional performance required, consistently to stay "at the top". Please correct me if I've misunderstood the implications of the math.

I'm content with it regardless. Reaching #1 means an endless stream of people pinging you for advice, asking why you're doing what you're doing, giving you crap when you have a bad race, etc. I really enjoyed spending a year at #1, but I'm happy to be done with it, and happier that my choice to not participate in more than about half of the races to come will mean I'm no longer ranked near the top.

To Cvetan's point, top-VSR turnover has always been a natural progression. The work required to reach the top is exhausting. Once you get there, it ceases to be as fun. You start being unhappy with 6th-place finishes, feeling pressure to pay for full packs in every event, etc. There were better #1's before me, who I passed because they quit. There are new #1's now who are there partly because they may be better than me and partly because I stopped entering every event. That's fine. That's the natural evolution of things. If one boat dominates for years, that kills the fun for the others wanting that spot.

The important thing is to have fun. If it isn't fun, then it isn't worth time and definitely isn't worth money.

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-11 | 03:12:38

Unless they build in some kind of points expiry one downside of this system is you can rest on your laurels if you manage to get really high points - you would be more likely to lose points with a slightly bad result than gain. Will be interesting to see how close to 5000 people get.

Good news for those of us that don't want to do every race though - will actually be better for you YM in terms of staying nearer the top with fewer races :-)

Post by freudenoli | 2019-04-11 | 11:39:29

very wise words YourMom...thats very true...its just a game and should be fun...so lets have fun :-)))

Post by Youn Navigator | 2019-04-15 | 08:15:31

Hi sailors (sorry for my English and my mistakes, I'am french... lol ),

On the advice of one friend "VR sailer" also, I discovered your website, with its features for the first time this morning, and it seems really great. So, I congratulate the ZEZO team because I can really imagine the big work involved to obtain this kind of tool.

At first, it seems that I don't "play" in the same "category" as the majority of people here, in regard of the comments, because I never use the CB for an online game, VR incuded, and i play only with VR coins won race after race, to offer myself some options lol.
It's true that targeting the absolute ranking in these conditions becomes very difficult, so, my pleasure in this game, is to manage my interpretation of the standard VR forecasts, occasionally supplemented with Windity, in order to finish ahead some other sailors who have paid full packs and using this kind of routing tools...

I'm curious to try, at least for a race, your router, just to see what I can do more with it, but being "old school", I have more pleasure to find myself my own ways, than to follow a routing software, which takes away, usually, any risk big "mistakes", but which obscures the pride of real "tactical" personal choices when these choices are "winners". A little bit in the spirit of a French saying "To conquer without danger, one triumphs without glory" ... I find the victory more "tasty", when it's obtained with human brain and personal choices, rather that being entrusted to a routing software. But I'm not throwing stone at anyone, and I also understand that the sharpest competitors are ranking for first place and using pure mathematics and routers to get there, that's part of the game ;)

Any way, your site is very interesting for ALL sailors, whatever their pleasure, because there is not only a routing tool, but also the polars (sails + type of sailing boat) that were removed from VR, which is a real plus, especially when not using routing calculator. This is a great discovery for me, and a big up you to the ZEZO team.

Glad to discorver ZEZO and your community, and I hope to have opportunity to discover a little more, both of you, as virtual sailors, through the forum (or also as real sailors if you are). For my part, I'm, I sailed many years on a sailing ship of 11m LOA ... And for professional part, I also work in the MRCC Reunion (Maritime Rescue Coordination Center of La Reunion island), for those who know it. It's also a reason to explain why I don't play the win, but only the pleasure to do the greatest of myself with a ship slower than the best: When an rescue operation starts during working days, the priority is the real rescue operation, and no longer the game ... This is how i finished grounded sometimes for few hours, missed some course changes, or did it too late of many hours...

Good weather to all, and hoping that the pleasure of virtual fair racing will stay always our first target, don't care the method to do it... And we will see in the close future what will give the new VSR Ranking ;)

Post by turb | 2019-04-16 | 20:35:08

Don't know which polars you're talking about.
There are also great polars here :
http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/
Have fun !

Post by Youn Navigator | 2019-04-19 | 05:29:42

You have also the polars here... For each race, with the details sails you can choose (following link) :
http://zezo.org/vor/polars.html?opt=0
You can also found it directly by the charts menu :
when you select "charts", you have the routing page, and into the up menu, you can select "polars"

Post by toxcct | 2019-04-19 | 06:13:46

Those 2 charts may differ in presentation, but their contents are base on the same data.

Post by Youn Navigator | 2019-04-16 | 05:10:50

Hi guys,

I come back to the new calculating system to obtain the VSR. If I understand it well, no matter how many regattas we participate in, when we don't run, the point count doesn't change, and the point gain or loss is "relativized" in relation to the results of the other racers with approximately the same level in the race, and not in relation to the real ranking. this means that even someone doing all the races could be more penalized with average or irregular results, than another who would only make a few some still manage to rank very well, their participation.

In fact, this kind of classification, more "fair" in a way, indirectly encourages the use of software routers, in order to maintain a regularity of result, and greatly penalizes all those who dare to think outside the box, and try weather options a little risky (in unstable conditions, or else). Indeed, if the choice led to a few hours losing its initial ranking, the final result will inevitably lead to a severe penalty with a relative poor ranking (or, in a way, a counter-performance) which would see him systematically sanctioned by a withdrawal of points.

This way of counting may therefore push the racers to limit themselves to following the "mass" of the players, especially to avoid to be isolated iby a wrong choice, and to lose a few hundred places, even a few thousand, and be punished immediately in the final ranking (I just have tryed it on the Defi Atlantique 2/2, I finished around the 16000th place, 19h after the 1st, I lose 196 points in the standings, while finishing 649th in the 1/2 race, I had gained 599 points ... To maintain his ranking, the skipper will therefore greatly hesitate to dare to really different course choices, not to run alone.This will therefore naturally lead everyone to routers and to similar choices, the whole fleet will be more "grouped" and it is finally the full options that will benefit from this method of calculation, since in a fleet grouped on the same route, the first to arrive will be forced the fastest ship ...

That's my opinion right now, but wait a few months to see if this is confirmed after several races, and for my part, it will not change anything to my pleasure, nor my motivation to try to beat the regular sailing more faster than mine.

Good luck to all

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-20 | 11:10:57

Just worked out using BGSteMarine's formula my initial VSR points would have been 4740 if it had been applied since the start of my participation a year or so ago (and starting at 2500).

Even my worst result of 13000/109000 in RDR IMOCA gave me positive points as it is equivalent to VSR rank of 4392. This does show how the low ability of the majority of the fleet greatly negates the effect of this new system especially in the larger races, making it more about how many races you do still. Would be good if they at least limited it to the number of finishers, or registered players, not everyone including all the guest players that came and took a look for 5 mins! I might send them a message suggesting this but then I don't hold out much hope of it being taken seriously.

In an earlier comment I said they seemed to change the initial points in the new system to be more linearly related to previous system points and this seemed to be fairer than whatever they did before that just seemed to be punishing me for the odd poor result but I take it back, I wish they had just applied the new formula to all our previous results.

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-20 | 11:16:06

Regarding risk taking, I agree with Youn this system may make it less appealing but then the low ability of the majority of the fleet does reduce the risk except for the most risky routes - you must have taken a big risk Youn!

Post by Youn Navigator | 2019-04-21 | 07:19:13

I did it, MidninghtFoiler, because i have a great pleasure to try unconventional way : I continue to routing my races myself, without software. I use the forecast of VR and Windity, but no software to keep an adaptive vision of possible evolutions. And I think it's also more attractive to success in your way, I'm convinced it's better than to only follow instructions (Time/Course/Sails) of a software, which working only with mathematics.
Consequences : Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose, without guarantee of result/regularity... But much more pleasure, especially when i success...
Any way, I don't forget that is only a virtual game, and I don't really care about ranking, but i agree that I appreciate also to obtain a good global ranking ;)
Have fun!

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2019-04-21 | 09:25:54

Forgive me Youn, I did not mean to criticise, I totally understand and have even done the odd race without zezo deliberately for the same reasons. It's quite fun if you agree with a few friends not to use it. The problem I have when I do this is that I spend hours trying to work it out myself!

I have had a few top 5 places and have often thought that with so many good players using zezo the only way to actually win a race is to not use it or at least do something different.

Post by Youn Navigator | 2019-04-23 | 13:19:15

Don't worry, MidnightFoiler, I didn't understood your answer like a critic... I just confirmed what you suggested : I did it! lol

And I have no problem with poeple uses routering, it's simply a fact : All skippers using it, have the same routing purposal, and follow the same way ;) And it becomes more difficult to really perform when the same calculator give the same result to everybody.

I'm agree with you, prepare a personnal routering alone, needs many hours to explore all possibilities, sometimes with hazardous result... But that's the game! ;) lol

Best to all, and good luck